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Post-Exit Perimenopause: When the Exit and Hormonal Transition Arrive at the Same Time
Post-Exit Perimenopause: When the Exit and Hormonal Transition Arrive at the Same Time. Annie Wright trauma therapy

Post-Exit Perimenopause: When the Exit and Hormonal Transition Arrive at the Same Time

For many women founders, the mid-forties bring a strange convergence: the sale of the company they built, and the start of perimenopause. Both are real transitions. Both are disorienting on their own. When they land in the same year, sometimes the same month, the symptoms overlap so completely that it’s hard to know what’s grief and what’s hormones. This article walks through why that intersection is so disorienting, what the research says about it, and how to get support for both instead of just one.

Last reviewed: July 2026 by Annie Wright, LMFT

QUICK ANSWER · UPDATED JULY 2026

The post-exit perimenopause intersection describes two identity-altering experiences arriving at once: the psychological aftermath of selling a company (loss of role, purpose, and daily community) and the onset of perimenopause, with its own somatic, cognitive, and hormonal disruption. For women founders in their mid-forties, these transitions frequently converge, and their symptoms overlap enough that clinical assessment gets genuinely difficult. Neither transition alone is simple. Together, they can produce a compounded sense of loss that’s disproportionate to what either would create on its own. In my work with driven women post-exit, the hardest part is usually naming what’s grief and what’s physiology, when both are happening in the same body at the same time.


In short: The post-exit perimenopause intersection occurs when a company sale and the onset of perimenopause arrive at the same time, creating overlapping symptoms of identity loss and hormonal disruption that intensify each other.

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WHO I AM AND WHY I KNOW THIS

I’m Annie Wright, LMFT, and I’ve spent more than 15,000 clinical hours supporting driven women through the identity work of midlife, including a specific pocket of founders moving through a company exit and the start of perimenopause at the same time. A few years ago I read William Bridges’ short, strange little book on transitions, and I haven’t been able to stop thinking about one line since: that every transition requires not just stepping into something new, but grieving something old, and that this grieving gets exponentially harder when two endings compete for the same nervous system at once (Bridges 1980). That’s exactly what I see across the table from me, again and again, with the women in this specific chapter of their lives.

The Hot Flash During the First Board Meeting Under New Ownership

Picture Lakeisha. She’s a founder who, after a decade of relentless building, just came through the acquisition of the logistics software company she started in her dining room. Three months post-close, she’s sitting in her first board meeting under new ownership. She’s still on the cap table. She still holds an advisory title on paper. But the power in the room has shifted in a way that’s hard to name and impossible to miss. The new CEO, a man a decade her junior, is presenting Q3 projections on a slide deck that uses her own color palette. And Lakeisha feels a wave begin low in her sternum and move up fast.

Her face flushes. Her scalp prickles. A single bead of sweat traces down behind her ear. She keeps her expression composed, nods at the right moments, but internally she’s not in the room anymore. She’s somewhere else entirely, fighting a two-front war nobody in that room can see.

This wasn’t just physical discomfort. It was two profound transitions colliding in the same body, in the same ten minutes. On one side: the acute grief of sitting at a table where she’s no longer the final word, where the company that was once an extension of her own nervous system is now a separate entity with its own logic, moving without her. Founders often describe the emotional attachment to what they’ve built as close to raising a child. Losing the ability to steer it, even when the sale itself was a win, can trigger a real grief response: emptiness, disorientation, a hollowed-out sense of who she is now that the thing she built no longer needs her hands on it. On the other side: her body, entirely independent of the boardroom drama, deciding this was also the moment to announce perimenopause. The indignity of feeling her own body betray her while she was already white-knuckling through a loss of professional identity was almost too much to hold at once.

The loneliness of it was its own kind of quiet. The men in that room, heads down in the numbers, weren’t equipped to see either thing happening to her: not the quiet dissolution of her role, not the internal heat wave she was riding out in real time. Her experience was invisible twice over. This isn’t a rare, isolated scene. It’s a pattern I see again and again in women founders: a major professional exit and the hormonal turbulence of perimenopause landing in the same window, amplifying each other, with almost no cultural or clinical language built to hold both at once.

What Is the Post-Exit Perimenopausal Intersection?

The post-exit perimenopausal intersection describes what happens when a woman founder is moving through the identity dissolution of selling her company at the same time her body begins the hormonal transition into perimenopause. The two together create a clinical picture where symptoms overlap so thoroughly that it becomes genuinely difficult to tell what’s driving the distress, and even harder to know where to go for help.

PERIMENOPAUSE

The hormonal transition preceding menopause, typically beginning in the early-to-mid forties and lasting four to ten years. It’s characterized by fluctuating estrogen levels that produce a wide range of cognitive, emotional, and somatic symptoms, including mood disruption, sleep changes, brain fog, anxiety, hot flashes, and depression.

In plain terms: These are the years before menopause when your hormones are, frankly, going a little haywire. Which means in practice: you might snap at your husband over a dishwasher-loading decision that wouldn’t have registered two years ago, or find yourself standing in a Target aisle unable to remember what you walked in for. It’s not you losing your mind. It’s your endocrine system renegotiating its terms without asking your permission first.

CO-OCCURRING IDENTITY TRANSITION

The clinical experience of moving through two simultaneous major life transitions, in this context, the hormonal transition of perimenopause and the identity dissolution of a founder exit, which amplify each other’s effects and can produce a combined presentation more severe than either would produce individually. This can lead to diagnostic ambiguity, delayed treatment, and prolonged distress.

In plain terms: Two big changes are happening in your life at once, and they’re not sitting politely side by side. They’re feeding each other. Which means in practice: the 3 a.m. wake-up that used to be “just” founder hypervigilance now comes with a night sweat attached, and you genuinely can’t tell your OB-GYN or your therapist which one to blame, because it’s both, tangled together, every single night.

The post-exit perimenopausal intersection isn’t coincidental. It’s a period where the psychological load becomes, quite literally, extraordinary. The identity dissolution that often follows a founder exit, the loss of operational purpose, the shift in status, the severing of a years-long attachment to something she built with her own hands, is a significant event on its own. For many founders, the company is a primary source of meaning, identity, and daily connection to other people. Losing that connection can trigger a form of ambiguous loss, a kind of grief without a clean edge, without a funeral, without anyone bringing a casserole. Layer in the unpredictable symptoms of perimenopause and the impact compounds. Women founders in this phase often tell me they feel lost, foggy, and disoriented, unable to separate the exit’s emotional fallout from the biological shifts happening in their own bodies. That ambiguity delays care and complicates the already hard work of figuring out who you are once the company doesn’t need you anymore.

The Research on Perimenopause and Major Life Transitions

The body and mind have a finite capacity for processing stress. When multiple profound transitions land at once, that system gets overwhelmed. I recently reread Bessel van der Kolk, MD, psychiatrist and trauma researcher, and I haven’t stopped thinking about his central argument in The Body Keeps the Score: that psychological stress isn’t only a mental event, it’s embedded directly in the nervous system’s physiology [1]. When a woman founder experiences the identity dissolution of an exit, her nervous system is already under real strain. Losing the central organizing principle of her days, the company, can trigger genuine disorientation, even something close to a threat response, as her body scrambles to adapt to a world where its old purpose no longer applies. In practice, that shows up as heightened anxiety, a jumpiness at emails from the acquirer, difficulty settling into a normal Tuesday. A brain wired for a decade of founder-level intensity doesn’t know how to downregulate on command.

Layering perimenopause onto an already taxed system is like asking the body to run two marathons at once. Perimenopause, with its fluctuating hormone levels, directly affects mood, cognition, and sleep architecture. Estrogen regulates neurotransmitters like serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine, the chemicals responsible for mood stability and clear thinking. As estrogen becomes erratic, those pathways get disrupted, and the result is often increased anxiety, irritability, and the specific kind of brain fog that makes a woman who used to close eight-figure deals suddenly lose her train of thought mid-sentence in a client call. What stayed with me from Louann Brizendine, MD, neuropsychiatrist and author of The Female Brain, is her observation that these hormonal shifts don’t create symptoms in a vacuum. They amplify a woman’s response to whatever else is already happening in her life [2]. If that event is a founder exit, the exit’s stress response and the hormonal turbulence start feeding each other in a loop.

What this means in practice: the grief, anxiety, and cognitive fog that would naturally follow a founder exit aren’t experienced at some neutral baseline. They’re often intensified by whatever her hormones happen to be doing that week. What might have been a difficult but survivable adjustment period post-exit can become genuinely destabilizing once perimenopausal symptoms enter the picture. The brain is trying to integrate the loss of a professional identity while managing erratic hormone signals disrupting sleep and focus, and the two tasks compete for the same limited resources. This creates a feedback loop: psychological stress worsens hormonal symptoms, hormonal symptoms make it harder to cope with psychological stress, and the woman in the middle can’t tell which lever to pull first. Left unaddressed, the sustained load can produce chronic fatigue and an overwhelm that makes even basic self-care feel out of reach.

How the Intersection Shows Up in Women Founders

In my work with post-exit founders, I’ve noticed this intersection often shows up first as diagnostic ambiguity. Women struggle to locate the source of their distress, which leaves them frustrated and feeling quietly “broken” with no clear explanation attached. That ambiguity is especially disorienting for women accustomed to clarity, control, and being the smartest person in the room about their own lives.

Lakeisha exited her logistics software company for an eight-figure sum after a grinding two-year earn-out. She was already in active perimenopause when the wire transfer landed. She described the first year post-close as “impossible to parse.” She couldn’t tell whether the brain fog, the kind that made replying to a simple email feel like translating a foreign language, was a lingering effect of the due diligence gauntlet, or the cognitive changes her gynecologist had warned her might come with perimenopause. “My executive function just tanked,” she told me, sitting across from me with her hands wrapped around a mug she never drank from, “and I genuinely didn’t know if it was the trauma of the exit or my estrogen levels falling off a cliff.” For a woman whose entire professional identity had been built on sharp thinking and fast decisions, that loss of mental clarity was its own kind of quiet crisis. Not knowing whether it was situational or biological only deepened the self-doubt.

Lakeisha also battled severe insomnia. For years she’d chalked up her fragmented sleep to founder hypervigilance, the cost of doing business when the business is yours. But six months before the close, a new pattern emerged: waking at 3 a.m. drenched in sweat, mind racing with a diffuse, existential dread that had nothing to do with product roadmaps anymore. Was this the usual post-exit anxiety, her nervous system still wired for threat after years of high-stakes decisions? Or was it the perimenopausal sleep disruption that had started right around the time the term sheet got signed? The lines blurred badly enough that she started to question her own read on herself, which for a woman who’d built a company on the strength of her own judgment, was its own particular kind of destabilizing.

The grief was its own tangle entirely. She mourned her team, the daily rhythm of building something, the identity she’d spent a decade constructing. But her gynecologist had also mentioned something she called “perimenopausal grief,” a diffuse, often inexplicable sadness that can accompany the hormonal shift, unrelated to any single event, more like mourning a younger self or a future that suddenly feels less certain. “Am I grieving the company,” Lakeisha asked me once, “or am I grieving my body? Or both? And how do I even start healing something I can’t name?” When that free-floating grief runs into the very specific, very concrete grief of an exit, the emotional terrain gets dense fast, and hard to move through without a map.

This diagnostic ambiguity isn’t just an inconvenience. It has real consequences for treatment. A woman who attributes everything to the exit might land in therapy but skip the hormonal support she also needs. A woman who focuses only on her hormones might miss the deeper identity work the exit itself demands. The clinical reality calls for a both/and approach, one most systems aren’t built to offer, which leaves founders like Lakeisha feeling like they have to choose which half of themselves to bring to which appointment.

The Gender-Specific Dimension of This Intersection

This particular convergence, the identity dissolution of a founder exit landing at the same time as a major hormonal transition, doesn’t happen to male founders in this form. Male founders absolutely experience the psychological aftermath of an exit: grief, identity disruption, the scramble to find a “second act.” But that psychological experience isn’t accompanied by a concurrent biological transition disrupting mood, cognition, and sleep in the same pervasive way.

A male founder’s shift in purpose after a liquidity event might trigger depression or anxiety, but his endocrine system generally stays stable through it. He isn’t managing hot flashes during a board meeting, mood swings driven by fluctuating estrogen, or sleep architecture that’s fallen apart on a hormonal timeline that has nothing to do with his calendar. Andropause exists, but it’s a gradual decline in testosterone, not the sharp, erratic swings of estrogen that define perimenopause. Both genders can face real psychological distress post-exit. The embodied experience of that distress isn’t the same.

The clinical invisibility of this gender-specific layer is its own problem. Women moving through both transitions at once are typically underserved on both fronts: not enough mental health support for the exit, not enough medical support for the perimenopause. A gynecologist might assess hormone levels carefully and prescribe hormone replacement therapy, but never ask about the grief of selling a company that was someone’s life’s work. Meanwhile, a post-exit coach skilled at identity transitions might lack the clinical grounding to recognize how perimenopausal symptoms are distorting the psychological picture, mistaking brain fog for depression, or mood swings for unprocessed grief.

The lack of integration leaves women feeling both isolated and, often, quietly misdiagnosed. Told their anxiety is “just stress” from the exit. Told their mood swings are “just hormones.” Nobody connecting the two dots that are, in fact, one continuous line. Louann Brizendine, MD, neuropsychiatrist, author of The Female Brain, and founder of the Women’s Mood and Hormone Clinic at UCSF, put language to this that I come back to often:

“The female brain is so deeply affected by hormones that their influence can be said to create a woman’s reality.”

Louann Brizendine, MD, neuropsychiatrist and author of The Female Brain, founder of the Women’s Mood and Hormone Clinic at UCSF

That line names exactly why ignoring the hormonal dimension of a founder exit is a real oversight, not a minor one. When a woman’s reality is being shaped in real time by fluctuating hormones, that shapes her capacity to process grief, adapt to an identity shift, and plan what comes next. Her perception, her emotional resilience, her cognitive clarity are all under the influence of forces she didn’t choose and can’t fully control. Without a gender-informed, integrated approach, women founders are often left to face this alone, feeling unseen by both the medical world and the entrepreneurial one, which can extend the distress far longer than it needs to last.

Both/And: Both Are Real Transitions, Both Require Real Support

Moving through the post-exit perimenopausal intersection well requires a both/and approach, not an either/or one. Neither the hormonal transition nor the identity dissolution of the exit is secondary. Both are primary, real, and demand their own tailored support. Treating only one is a little like treating a complex illness with half the necessary medication. You’ll see some relief. You won’t get to resolution.

Aaliyah, forty-four, spent two years working through an earn-out after her fintech company was acquired for a nine-figure sum. Six months after the deal closed, she felt utterly stuck. The loss of her company, her team, her daily sense of purpose weighed on her constantly, but the emotional weight was compounded by debilitating hot flashes, night sweats that left her exhausted by 7 a.m., and a brain fog thick enough that she couldn’t focus long enough to actually process what she was feeling. She tried therapy. It felt like “talking around” her own grief, unable to get underneath it because the physical noise was too loud, too constant, too consuming. Her nervous system, hammered by internal heat waves and sleep deprivation, stayed in a near-constant state of alarm, which made any real emotional processing close to impossible.

Her primary care doctor was dismissive at first. Eventually she was referred to a menopause specialist who took her seriously and started her on hormone replacement therapy. Within weeks, something shifted. The hot flashes eased. Her sleep improved. The fog began to lift. “It wasn’t a magic bullet for the grief,” she told me. “It was the thing that made the grief work possible instead of just overwhelming.” Addressing the physiological dysregulation gave her nervous system room to settle, which freed up the mental and emotional bandwidth that had been entirely consumed by symptom management.

Once her body felt more regulated, Aaliyah could actually show up for the therapeutic work. The intensity of what she felt about losing the company hadn’t disappeared. It had become workable. She could sit with the loss, name the identity dissolution underneath it, and start building a sense of self that didn’t depend on her founder title. The HRT didn’t resolve her grief. It created the physiological ground she needed to stand on while she faced it. She could think clearly enough to feel her emotions without drowning in them, which is the specific, quiet work of reconstructing an identity after the thing that organized it is gone.

Aaliyah’s experience is the both/and principle made concrete. Treating the perimenopause medically didn’t erase her need for psychological support around the exit. It built the foundation that made the therapeutic work possible in the first place. And therapy alone, without the hormonal piece addressed, would likely have left her stuck indefinitely, her nervous system too dysregulated to do the emotional work she actually needed to do. Both required real clinical attention. Neither one substituted for the other.

The Systemic Lens: Why Both Exit Culture and Medical Culture Are Ill-Equipped for This Intersection

The struggle women founders face at this intersection isn’t just personal. It’s structural. Both the entrepreneurial “exit culture” and the broader medical culture are, in their current form, poorly equipped to see the whole person facing this convergence, and that systemic blindness is a real part of why the isolation runs so deep.

Exit culture, the founder peer networks, the venture-adjacent coaching resources, largely operates from a linear, often male-centric post-exit trajectory. The language is all “what’s next,” “the second act,” board seats, angel checks. There’s almost no language in that world for perimenopause. The fluctuating hormones, the disrupted sleep, the brain fog: rarely named, rarely discussed. The prevailing tone rewards grit and quick re-engagement, leaving little room for the internal recalibration perimenopause actually requires. Founders get encouraged to “pivot” or “build again” without anyone asking whether her body has the bandwidth for it right now. When a woman founder mentions fatigue or mood swings in these spaces, it tends to get filed under “burnout from the exit” rather than understood as the tangled interplay it actually is. The result is a culture of silence that pushes women to carry this experience alone.

Medical culture has its own version of the same blind spot. A gynecologist, increasingly well-versed in perimenopause, may still lack real context for the identity dimensions of a founder exit. She might be excellent at reading hormone panels and prescribing HRT, and never once ask about the grief of selling a company, or the disorienting questions sudden wealth can raise. She may not connect a patient’s anxiety to the professional upheaval sitting one layer beneath it. Fifteen-minute appointment slots don’t leave much room to ask anyway.

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The woman standing at the center of both systems is, functionally, invisible to each of them. Her gynecologist is managing her hormone levels. Her exit coach is mapping her next chapter. Nobody is treating the whole person living through both at once. This is exactly the bind Lakeisha described in our early sessions: not knowing which professional to call first, because no one on either side of the table seemed to be looking at the whole picture. She’s left to bridge the gap herself, deciding which “part” of her experience to bring to which appointment. It’s a systemic failure that doesn’t just prolong suffering. It misses a real chance to support an entire cohort of capable women through a genuinely important life stage.

Getting Support for Both

Moving through the post-exit perimenopausal intersection takes an intentional, integrated approach. Both are real, both are affecting you right now, and both deserve dedicated attention. Here’s what actually helps.

  • Find a therapist who understands the exit and takes the hormonal dimension seriously. That’s a specific combination, but it matters. Look for someone who works with founders or driven women, and ask directly how they think about perimenopause and its psychological impact. They won’t be prescribing hormones, but they should understand how these biological shifts affect your capacity for emotional regulation, cognitive processing, and stress resilience. My own practice is built around exactly this intersection, the founder experience and the hormonal realities that often arrive alongside it. You can learn more about therapy for female founders here. This is educational information, not a promise of a specific outcome. If you’re in a mental health crisis, please contact the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline or your local emergency services.
  • Find a gynecologist or menopause specialist who asks about life context, not just symptoms. Look for someone who takes a genuinely whole-person view, asking about stress, major life changes, and overall well-being, not just hot flashes or sleep. A good menopause specialist understands that hormonal health is intertwined with mental and emotional health and will be open to coordinating with your therapist. Discuss the full range of options, including HRT, lifestyle changes, and nutritional support, with a qualified medical provider rather than self-diagnosing. The North American Menopause Society (NAMS) maintains a directory of certified practitioners.
  • Consider addressing the perimenopause medically before expecting deep post-exit therapeutic work to land. As Aaliyah’s experience showed, hormonal symptoms can be loud enough to drown out everything else. If you’re dealing with debilitating hot flashes, chronic insomnia, or heavy brain fog, your nervous system may be too dysregulated for deep emotional processing to take hold yet. Talk with a qualified medical provider about your options first. This doesn’t mean delaying therapy. It means early sessions might focus more on stabilization and coping until any medical support has had a chance to work. Once the physiological noise quiets, there’s simply more room to engage with the emotional weight of the exit itself.
  • Give yourself more time for the adjustment than you’d expect. Perimenopausal amplification adds real clinical complexity. The typical post-exit adjustment window, often underestimated even without hormonal shifts involved, needs to stretch further when perimenopause is part of the picture. This isn’t weakness. It’s an honest read of the load you’re actually carrying. The body needs time to recalibrate. The identity needs time to rebuild. Rushing either one tends to produce burnout, or a “second act” that doesn’t actually fit who you’re becoming.
  • Seek out resources that speak to both the founder experience and women’s health specifically. Look for content, communities, and practitioners who name this exact intersection. The more your experience gets normalized, the less isolated it feels. Talking with other women moving through something similar tends to offer a kind of validation that counters the isolation directly. My perimenopause for founders article and the Women Founders Resource Hub are reasonable starting points.

Here’s the clinical picture: address both. Neither resolves the other on its own. And both are workable, with the right support, in a way that lets you move through this dual transition with more clarity and a steadier sense of who you’re becoming.

Warmly, Annie.

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Q: What is the typical age range for perimenopause?

A: Perimenopause typically begins in a woman’s early to mid-forties, though it can start earlier or later, and can last anywhere from four to ten years before menopause is reached.

Q: Can perimenopause symptoms be mistaken for post-exit depression or anxiety?

A: Yes. Many symptoms of perimenopause, including mood swings, anxiety, depression, brain fog, and sleep disturbances, overlap significantly with the psychological fallout of a founder exit, which makes it genuinely hard to know which is driving what.

Q: Why is this intersection particularly challenging for women founders?

A: Women founders often experience a profound identity dissolution after exiting their companies, since their sense of self is often deeply intertwined with the venture. When that psychological load coincides with the biological and emotional shifts of perimenopause, the combined weight can be overwhelming and lead to real diagnostic ambiguity.

Q: What kind of medical professional should I see for perimenopause?

A: A gynecologist or menopause specialist with expertise in hormonal health, ideally one open to understanding your broader life context, is a reasonable starting point. The North American Menopause Society (NAMS) maintains a directory of certified practitioners.

Q: Will hormone replacement therapy (HRT) resolve my post-exit grief?

A: Not directly. HRT can meaningfully ease perimenopausal symptoms, which creates a more stable physiological and emotional foundation. It won’t resolve post-exit grief on its own, but for many women it makes the grief more workable and easier to engage with in therapy. This is general education, not a personal medical recommendation. Please talk with a qualified physician about your specific situation.

Q: How long should I expect the post-exit perimenopausal adjustment period to last?

A: It varies a great deal person to person, but it’s wise to allow for a longer timeframe than you’d initially expect. The dual nature of these transitions means healing and integration can take a couple of years, and that pace deserves patience rather than judgment.

RESOURCES & REFERENCES

  1. van der Kolk, B. A. (2014). The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma. Viking. Publisher.
  2. Porges, S. W. (2022). Polyvagal Theory: A Science of Safety. Frontiers in Integrative Neuroscience, 16, 871227. DOI: 10.3389/fnint.2022.871227
  3. Brizendine, L. (2006). The Female Brain. Broadway Books. Publisher.
  4. Cardon, M. S., & Glauser, M. (2011). Entrepreneurial Passion: Sources and Sustenance. Pace DigitalCommons. Retrieved from https://digitalcommons.pace.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1002&context=wilson

This content is psychoeducational in nature and is not a substitute for professional mental health treatment or medical care. If you’re in crisis, please contact the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline. See the editorial policy for more on how this content is researched and reviewed.

References

Peer-Reviewed Research (Vancouver)

  1. van der Kolk BA, Wang JB, Yehuda R, Bedrosian L, Coker AR, Harrison C, et al. Effects of MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD on self-experience. PLoS One. 2024;19(1):e0295926. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0295926. PMID: 38198456.
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Annie Wright, LMFT

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Helping driven women finally feel as good as their résumé looks.

Annie Wright is a licensed psychotherapist (LMFT #95719) and trauma-informed executive coach with over 15,000 clinical hours. She works with driven women, including Silicon Valley leaders, physicians, and entrepreneurs, repairing the psychological foundations beneath their impressive lives. Annie is the founder and former CEO of Evergreen Counseling, a multimillion-dollar trauma-informed therapy center she built, scaled, and successfully exited. A regular contributor to Psychology Today, her expert commentary has appeared in USA Today, Forbes, Business Insider, Inc., NBC, and The Information. She is currently writing her first book with W.W. Norton.

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