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Viktor Frankl’s Logotherapy Explained: What “Meaning-Making” Actually Looks Like When You’re in the Middle of the Dark
When the life you built around achievement stops paying out, the collapse is total. This piece uses Viktor Frankl’s logotherapy as a clinical lens on that specific collapse, and it’s careful about the difference between choosing to build significance and being told to find a silver lining. There’s no assignment here to make your pain worth something. There’s a map for what comes after the old markers of success go quiet.
- The Moment the Meaning Collapses
- What Is Logotherapy?
- The Clinical Architecture of Meaning
- How the Existential Vacuum Appears in Driven Women
- What Frankl Actually Said About Suffering, and What He Didn’t
- Both/And: Your Achievement Was Real AND It Can’t Be the Only Source of Meaning
- The Systemic Lens: The Meritocratic Promise and the Externalization of Meaning
- How to Rebuild Meaning When the Old Structures Collapse
- When You Can’t Find Meaning Yet
- Frequently Asked Questions
- Related Reading
The Moment the Meaning Collapses
It’s 7:30 on a Tuesday morning in March, and Alika is standing in the kitchen of the apartment she fought for, the one with the exposed brick and the corner window, holding a mug of coffee that’s gone lukewarm in her hand. Her blazer is still on its hanger by the door. Her phone shows nine unread messages from the team, all of them congratulations. She made partner yesterday. Eleven years, two miscarried Fridays a week with her mother, a marriage that quietly ended somewhere around year seven of the climb, and yesterday the managing partners called her into the glass conference room and told her she’d made it.
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“I keep waiting to feel it,” she tells me two weeks later, turning a paperclip over and over between her fingers. “Everyone keeps texting me like I won something. And I did. I know I did. But I stood in my kitchen this morning and I felt exactly the way I felt the morning before. Nothing changed. I made partner and nothing in my chest changed, and I don’t understand how that’s possible after eleven years of telling myself this was the thing.”
Sitting with Alika that day, I felt something I’ve come to recognize across hundreds of driven women: not confusion on her part, but a kind of grief that hadn’t found its name yet. She wasn’t ungrateful. She wasn’t broken. She had done the thing she said she wanted, and it hadn’t delivered what she was promised it would.
What Alika was describing wasn’t a failure of gratitude or a character flaw. It was the moment the meaning she’d attached to a specific external marker stopped being able to hold the weight she’d put on it. That collapse has a name, and understanding it’s the first step toward building something sturdier in its place.
What Is Logotherapy?
Logotherapy is a form of existential analysis developed by Viktor Frankl, MD, PhD, an Austrian psychiatrist and Holocaust survivor, who described it as a psychotherapeutic approach centered on the human search for significance as the primary motivational force in life. Frankl’s account, most famously presented in his book Man’s Search for Meaning, holds that even under brutal conditions, a person can find purpose that sustains the will to keep going.
In plain terms: Logotherapy helps people identify what actually matters to them, especially when life feels hollow or unbearable. It’s about locating personal significance in your experience, including the painful parts, without requiring you to be glad any of it happened.
I recently went back to Frankl’s original lectures, the ones he gave before he wrote the book most people know him for, and I haven’t been able to stop thinking about one line: he insisted that meaning could never be handed to a person by a therapist, a doctrine, or a system. It has to be found, and it’s specific to the individual. When I introduce logotherapy in my work with driven women, that’s the piece I lead with. It’s a grounded approach that cuts through external expectation and asks a much harder question underneath it.
Frankl built this framework out of unimaginable circumstances. As a prisoner in Nazi concentration camps, he watched who tended to survive and who didn’t, and he noticed that the presence or absence of a reason to keep living, however small, tracked with survival in ways that had nothing to do with physical strength. He didn’t treat significance as a luxury. He treated it as a lifeline. His argument, stripped down, is that a person’s primary drive isn’t pleasure and not power but the will to locate significance, even inside suffering. This put him at odds with a lot of the therapy of his era, which focused on symptom reduction or excavating the past. Logotherapy asks a different question: what’s your specific purpose, right now, in this exact circumstance?
For driven women who wrestle with perfectionism and the pressure to keep performing, this reframe can be its own kind of relief. Instead of measuring worth by output or approval, logotherapy invites a shift toward naming the values that were driving the achievement all along. There’s a difference between having no compass and having a compass you finally located.
Here’s the part I want to be precise about, because it’s the part that gets flattened in a lot of pop-psychology treatments of Frankl’s work. Finding significance doesn’t mean forcing optimism or glossing over what’s actually hard. Frankl believed suffering was inevitable and that how a person responds to it shapes the experience, but he never argued that a person has to manufacture gladness about the suffering itself. For many of the women I work with, this distinction is what starts to dismantle toxic positivity, the demand to “stay positive” regardless of what’s actually happening. Clinically, this looks like Socratic dialogue, pointed questions that help a client clarify what actually matters to her, separate from what she’s been told should matter. When you’re driven, it’s easy to lose track of the “why” underneath the doing. Logotherapy is built to pull that why back into view.
The Clinical Architecture of Meaning
In my work with clients who’ve been through something difficult, I watch the process of building significance from hard experience reshape how they understand themselves. This isn’t a hopeful idea I’m attached to, it’s grounded in decades of research. Richard Tedeschi, PhD, and Lawrence Calhoun, PhD, the psychologists who coined the term post-traumatic growth, have spent their careers documenting that people don’t simply recover from adversity. Some of them change through it, and the mechanism that drives that change is the active construction of significance.
Post-traumatic growth describes the positive psychological shift that can happen after someone confronts a truly hard set of circumstances. Tedeschi and Calhoun’s research identifies where this growth tends to concentrate: closer relationships, a different relationship to what matters, a sense of new possibility, and an increased sense of personal capacity. None of this erases the difficulty. It reorganizes how a person understands herself in relation to it.
One way to understand why building significance matters is through a term Frankl coined: the existential vacuum. It describes the specific feeling of emptiness that can surface after a major disruption, when the old scaffolding of purpose is gone and nothing has replaced it yet.
A deep sense of emptiness and loss of direction, often surfacing after a major life disruption or after a long-pursued goal is finally achieved. It can present as boredom, low mood, or a persistent sense that daily life lacks a reason.
In plain terms: This is the flat, hollow feeling that can follow a milestone you worked years for. It’s common among driven women rebuilding a sense of what matters after their old markers of success stop working.
This vacuum isn’t unusual for driven women who push hard across their careers and their personal lives, only to find themselves asking, quietly, why they’re doing any of it. A hard season can deepen this sense of emptiness, but it also opens a door toward reconstructing something in its place.
Judith Herman, MD, a psychiatrist at Harvard Medical School and author of Trauma and Recovery, offers a framework that lines up closely with this process: a three-stage model of safety, remembrance and mourning, and reconnection. Building significance becomes especially central in that third stage, reconnection.
During the safety phase, the work is establishing physical and emotional security. Remembrance and mourning follows, where a client processes what happened by telling the story and grieving what was lost. Reconnection is where a person rebuilds relationships and daily life, and often discovers a new or renewed sense of what matters. This is where the architecture actually takes shape.
Building significance in this context means weaving together the threads of the past with present understanding and future possibility. It’s not about spinning a hard experience into something positive or denying that it was hard. Tedeschi and Calhoun’s research suggests that people who engage deeply in this process report higher well-being and a stronger capacity to withstand future stress.
At the level of the brain, this process engages the prefrontal cortex, the region responsible for complex thought, reflection, and emotional regulation. A hard experience often disrupts that system, activating the amygdala and its fear and survival responses instead. The active construction of significance helps a person move from a state of high alert back toward reflective processing, which is what allows her to reframe the story of what happened, loosening the grip the story has been holding. This isn’t a quick fix. It takes time, support, and often clinical guidance. But when a client commits to exploring what an experience means for her specifically, rather than what it’s supposed to mean, she often finds strengths she didn’t know were there.
In my clinical experience, when driven women begin rebuilding a sense of what matters, they tend to describe feeling more connected, to themselves, to the people around them, and to their own values. That connection isn’t about achievement. It’s about living in a way that feels like hers.
How the Existential Vacuum Appears in Driven Women
Lilia sits across from me on a gray November afternoon, her hands wrapped around a paper coffee cup that’s long since gone cold, the cardboard sleeve soft from how many times she’s turned it. She’s a director of operations who spent the last decade climbing with a clear target in front of her at every turn. This past year, the target disappeared. She got the role she’d been building toward for six years. The campaigns and quarterly wins that used to light something up in her now land flat. The title on her email signature changed. Nothing else did.
In my work with clients like Lilia, I see the existential vacuum, that specific hollowness, surface in women who’ve built their identity around a role or a goal. When the role shifts, or the anticipated payoff doesn’t arrive, the foundation underneath their sense of self goes with it. For Lilia, the success she once wanted so badly turned into a low, steady hum of confusion. “If this isn’t what makes my life matter,” she asked me, “then what does?”
This doesn’t always announce itself as dramatic despair. More often it’s quieter: exhaustion that persists no matter how much she sleeps, a background dissatisfaction, an internal voice questioning whether any of it counted. Lilia described waking up most mornings with the sense that she was “going through the motions of being her.” She felt cut off from her work and from the version of herself she’d spent a decade constructing.
Driven women in this vacuum often report losing pleasure in things that used to bring it. Lilia used to love the strategy sessions, leading her team through a hard problem. Now those hours feel mechanical, and even the parts of her life that used to recharge her, dinner with friends, a Sunday run, started to feel like items on a list. This kind of collapse can bring a cluster of physical and emotional symptoms along with it: irritability, a low-grade numbness, a creeping sense of having wasted potential. For Lilia, that last feeling arrived tangled with shame, which made it hard to tell anyone, including me at first, that she no longer felt satisfaction in the thing she’d worked so hard to reach.
In moments like these, the existential vacuum can look like burnout or low mood from the outside, but the root sits somewhere else. It’s a crisis of significance, not a crisis of stamina, and recognizing that’s the first real step, not toward some tidy resolution, but toward exploring sources of significance that sit outside the traditional markers of success.
What Frankl Actually Said About Suffering, and What He Didn’t
A term Frankl introduced in his later writing to describe the capacity to hold onto a sense of possibility while looking directly at pain, guilt, and mortality, rather than looking away from them. It’s not cheerfulness. It’s the position that significance can coexist with hardship without requiring the hardship to be justified or welcomed.
In plain terms: This is Frankl’s answer to the question of whether you have to be positive about something terrible in order to move forward from it. His answer is no. You can hold both the fact that something was terrible and the fact that you’re still building a life.
I want to be direct about something, because this is the part of Frankl’s work that gets misread most often, and it’s the part I’m most careful with in session. Frankl never argued that a person must find a reason for her suffering, or that suffering is secretly a gift. He was a Holocaust survivor who lost his wife, his parents, and his brother in the camps. He wasn’t in the business of telling people their worst experiences were disguised blessings. What he argued was narrower and, I think, more honest: that a person retains the freedom to choose her attitude toward what can’t be changed, and that this choice is where significance can still be built, even when the circumstance itself remains unjustifiable.
That distinction matters clinically. There’s a wide gap between “I’m choosing to build something out of what happened to me” and “what happened to me had to happen so that I could build this.” The first is agency. The second is a demand dressed up as comfort, and in my office it usually arrives from well-meaning family members, not from the client herself. I’ve sat with driven women who were told, after a layoff or a diagnosis or a divorce, that it happened “for a reason,” and what I hear underneath their frustration is a reasonable objection: nobody gets to assign a reason to someone else’s pain from the outside.
So here’s what this article isn’t asking of you. It’s not asking you to find the upside of a hard chapter. It’s not suggesting that if you can’t locate significance in your suffering, you’re doing healing wrong. Frankl himself was careful to separate the search for significance from any requirement that suffering be redeemed by it. Some suffering just costs what it costs. The work isn’t making it worth it. The work, when and if you’re ready for it, is building a life alongside it that still holds weight for you.
The Sunday Neurosis and the Terror of the Pause
In my work with driven women, I often see a particular kind of dread surface right as the workweek ends. Frankl gave this a name decades ago: Sunday neurosis, the sinking feeling that arrives when the distractions of the week disappear and the mind is left alone with itself. For many driven women, that pause reveals a gnawing emptiness or a low-grade anxiety, as if their sense of worth depends entirely on staying in motion.
Frankl observed that this reaction comes from a confrontation with the same existential vacuum, the void that appears once the usual busyness fades. It isn’t simply boredom. It’s a deeper encounter with absence, and for driven women who’ve tied identity to output, it can feel closer to panic than to rest. It forces the questions the week is built to avoid: who am I when I’m not producing something? What do I actually want, separate from the next goal?
I see this terror of the pause show up as an inability to rest without guilt. Many clients describe restlessness on quiet Sunday afternoons, as though they’re waiting for a task to rescue them from stillness. The issue is never laziness. It’s a deep discomfort with facing herself without something to do. Frankl’s insight is that the antidote isn’t more output. It’s locating significance somewhere other than achievement, learning to tolerate silence, and finding fulfillment that doesn’t depend on external proof. For women raised to value doing over being, that’s a real shift, not a small one.
In session, we work through the layers underneath that fear of the pause: values, relationships, the parts of a life that don’t produce anything measurable but still hold weight. The aim isn’t to eliminate rest’s discomfort overnight. It’s to build a life where stillness stops being a threat.
“The most basic and powerful way to connect to meaning is not to fix or to cure or to explain the suffering away. It’s to be present to it. Meaning does not arrive when the pain ends. It grows quietly, alongside the pain, in the choosing of how we will carry it.”
Rachel Naomi Remen, MD, physician and author of Kitchen Table Wisdom
Both/And: Your Achievement Was Real AND It Can’t Be the Only Source of Meaning
Alika comes back to this eight months into our work together, on an afternoon in late fall, the light already going early outside my office window. She’d just returned from delivering the keynote at her firm’s annual conference, an honor she’d been angling toward for years. She’s holding her phone with the recap email still open, forty new LinkedIn connection requests sitting in the notification badge. Her voice has pride in it. It also has something tighter underneath, like the achievement is a coat that doesn’t quite fit the way she expected.
“I gave that speech and I watched two hundred people clap,” she says, “and about ten seconds in I had this thought that wouldn’t leave: if I’m not the woman who gives keynotes, who am I? I’ve spent so long being the person who delivers. I don’t actually know what’s underneath that.” She sets the phone face down on the arm of the chair. “That’s a strange thing to realize while two hundred people are clapping for you.”
In my work with clients like Alika, I keep encountering this same complicated truth: an achievement can be entirely real and still be unable to hold the full weight of a life’s significance on its own. It’s tempting, especially after investing years into a specific goal, to let that identity take over completely. But when achievement becomes the only lens a person sees herself through, the view narrows, and she becomes vulnerable to feeling lost the moment that success shifts or fades.
Alika’s accomplishments aren’t in question. The keynote was real. The years of work behind it were real. And the question she asked herself in that auditorium is also legitimate: what happens to her sense of self if the applause stops, or if she stops being the one who’s asked to speak? That’s often where ambition tips from a source of fulfillment into a source of quiet dread.
What I encourage in sessions like this is naming the other parts of a life that don’t come with an audience. Alika started talking about the Saturday mornings she used to spend restoring an old bookshelf she’d found on the street, something she hadn’t touched in three years because work absorbed the time, and the two closest friends she’d let calls go to voicemail for because a deadline felt more urgent. None of this competes with the keynote. It sits alongside it, and it lets her hold a both/and: the keynote and the career behind it are real and worth acknowledging, and they were never going to be enough, by themselves, to answer the question she asked herself in that auditorium. That’s not a flaw in her. It’s a structural feature of building a life on a single pillar.
I want to name plainly what this both/and isn’t. It’s not a demand that Alika feel grateful for her doubt, or find some silver lining in the discomfort under the applause. It’s simply an accurate description: her drive isn’t the problem, and it was also never going to be sufficient on its own. Both things are true. Neither one cancels the other.
The Systemic Lens: The Meritocratic Promise and the Externalization of Meaning
In my work with clients, I’ve watched how deeply capitalism and meritocracy shape the way driven women come to see their own worth. These systems promise that if you work hard enough and chase visible success, significance will follow. The problem is that this promise locates worth outside the self, in things that can be displayed or measured: job titles, compensation, followers, awards, rather than something a person builds from within.
Capitalism runs on productivity. It rewards what can be counted: promotions, revenue, social proof. For women raised inside a meritocratic frame, this becomes a relentless chase after external markers, and worth starts to track with output. I want to be clear that this isn’t a personal failing. It’s a predictable outcome of living inside a system built to measure people by what they produce, and it leaves little room for the slower, internal work of self-compassion.
This externalization also flattens the complexity of women’s lives. Driven women juggle multiple roles at once, career, family, friendship, care work, and the meritocratic promise doesn’t account for the invisible labor tangled through all of it. In therapy, I encourage clients to look honestly at these larger forces. Recognizing that your sense of worth has been shaped by a culture that values you mainly for your output opens the question of whether the standards you’re chasing actually reflect what you want, or what you were handed, and it opens a door back to internal sources of significance that don’t depend on outside approval.
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This isn’t an argument against ambition or success. It’s an argument for widening the definition of what success includes, so there’s finally space for the parts of a person that can’t be quantified but are still real.
How to Rebuild Meaning When the Old Structures Collapse
“The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths. Beautiful people do not just happen.”
Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, psychiatrist and author of On Death and Dying
When the foundation you relied on gives way, it can feel like the ground itself has changed shape. In my work with clients, I’ve watched how disorienting this loss can be. But significance isn’t fixed or handed down. It’s something a person actively builds, even in the middle of upheaval, and often especially there.
Frankl identified three routes to significance that I return to often with clients moving through real loss or real change. None of these are quick fixes. They’re practical, specific starting points for rebuilding a sense of purpose that feels real again.
1. Creating a Work or Doing a Deed
Frankl argued that significance often comes from what a person contributes through action. That doesn’t mean launching a company by next month. It might mean finishing a project that’s been sitting unfinished, or volunteering somewhere that pulls at something in you. In therapy, I help women explore what activities actually connect to their values and strengths, as opposed to what they think should. Consistency matters more than getting it right. When the old structure is gone, the work you choose becomes a compass pointing toward the next direction.
2. Experiencing Something or Encountering Someone
Significance also arrives through experience: the specific color of a sky at a particular hour, a piece of music that stops you mid-sentence, real contact with another person. This kind of connection can steady you when everything inside feels unstable. It isn’t about forcing anything to feel good. It’s about staying present with what’s actually happening, sometimes through receiving, being seen or cared for by someone who stays present with both your pain and your capacity.
3. The Attitude We Take Toward Unavoidable Suffering
Some suffering can’t be changed or avoided. Frankl’s argument here’s precise: the attitude a person takes toward that suffering can shape what it does to her, without requiring her to accept the suffering as good or necessary. This isn’t passive endurance, and it isn’t pretending something is fine when it isn’t. It’s an active choice about how to respond to what truly can’t be controlled.
In therapy, this looks like exploring what matters most to a client even inside hardship, noticing a moment of courage inside vulnerability, or strength in setting a boundary that costs something. This work is deeply personal, rarely linear, and it’s one of the more durable ways to reclaim a sense of agency when life feels out of control.
Rebuilding significance after a collapse isn’t something a person has to do without support. There’s a real difference between doing this work alone at 2 a.m. with a search engine and doing it with a therapist trained to hold the specific weight of it. Significance doesn’t return all at once. With patience it accumulates, and the structure you rebuild doesn’t have to replicate what was lost. It can be something new, shaped by what you’ve survived rather than a replacement for what came before.
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When You Can’t Find Meaning Yet
I want to close with something I don’t say enough in writing, because it’s easy for an article like this to sound like a demand disguised as a road map: you don’t have to find significance right now. You don’t have to find it this year. Some seasons are just hard, and staying alive through them, showing up to the parts of your life that still need you, is its own form of effort, whether or not it produces an insight you can name.
Lilia and I talked about this directly, months after that first cold coffee cup. She’d started painting again, badly, by her own account, on Sunday afternoons that used to terrify her. She hadn’t had a breakthrough. “I still don’t really know what any of it’s for,” she told me, mixing a color that wasn’t quite right yet. “I just know Sunday doesn’t feel like drowning anymore. That’s not nothing. I used to think it had to be more than that.”
It doesn’t have to be more than that. If you’re in the middle of the collapse this article describes, the goal isn’t to arrive at a tidy answer about why your particular hardship happened or what it’s teaching you. Some of it may never resolve into a lesson. What Frankl’s work actually offers is smaller and, I think, more honest: the freedom to choose what you do next, even inside circumstances you didn’t choose and can’t undo. That choice is available to you whether or not you ever land on a satisfying reason for any of it.
If you’re reading this from inside your own dark stretch, where meaning feels less like a comfort and more like a demand you can’t meet, I want to be careful here. Logotherapy doesn’t ask you to be grateful for your suffering or to pretend it happened for a reason. Frankl himself was clear that some things are simply tragic. What meaning-making offers is smaller and truer, the freedom to choose your stance toward what you can’t change. You can grieve fully what has been taken from you and also, in your own time, decide what you’ll make of what remains, both at once. Neither the grief nor the meaning has to wait for the other. This isn’t a formula you apply alone in the dark. It’s a slow, human process, and it goes better in company. When you’re ready for support in the middle of it, I’m here.
Warmly,
Annie
Warmly, Annie
Q: Does logotherapy mean I’ve to find a silver lining in my trauma?
A: No. This is the most common misreading of Frankl’s work. He never argued that suffering needs to be justified or reframed as secretly good. What he argued is narrower: that a person retains the freedom to choose her attitude toward what she can’t change. That’s different from being told your pain happened for a reason. You’re allowed to hold that something was simply hard, without extracting a lesson from it on any particular timeline.
Q: How can I find significance in my work when I feel constantly burned out?
A: In my work with clients, burnout is often a sign that the current approach isn’t serving what actually matters underneath it. Start by reconnecting with what originally drove you toward this work, separate from the deadlines stacked on top of it. That reconnection can bring purpose back into view even while the exhaustion is still real.
Q: Is burnout just about working too much, or is there more to it?
A: Burnout isn’t only about hours logged. It’s frequently rooted in a disconnect between what you’re doing and what actually matters to you. When your effort doesn’t line up with your values, exhaustion lands harder. Addressing it means looking past workload toward whether your work resonates with your deeper needs.
Q: What exactly is logotherapy, and how can it help me?
A: Logotherapy is a therapeutic approach developed by Viktor Frankl that centers on locating significance inside life’s hard circumstances. Unlike approaches that focus mainly on symptoms or the past, logotherapy helps you identify a personal sense of purpose even in difficult conditions. In practice, it’s built around two questions: why am I doing this, and what does my life require of me right now?
Q: Can I use logotherapy principles on my own, or do I need a therapist?
A: You can explore some of these principles independently by reflecting on your values and what you want your life to be built around. Journaling about what gives you a sense of significance can be a real starting point. Because this work often surfaces complicated emotion, having a therapist to work alongside can provide structure and support.
Q: How do I balance ambition with rest without feeling guilty?
A: Balancing ambition and rest is less about choosing one over the other and more about integration. In my practice, I encourage clients to treat rest as fuel for sustainable effort rather than a luxury outside of it. Letting go of the guilt means recognizing that boundaries and downtime support your values rather than working against them.
Related Reading
- Frankl, Viktor E. Man’s Search for Meaning. 1959.
- Herman, Judith. Trauma and Recovery: The Aftermath of Violence, From Domestic Abuse to Political Terror. Basic Books, 1992.
- Tedeschi, Richard G., and Lawrence G. Calhoun. “Posttraumatic Growth: Conceptual Foundations and Empirical Evidence.” Psychological Inquiry 15, no. 1 (2004): 1-18.
- Hollis, James. The Middle Passage: From Misery to Meaning in Midlife. Inner City Books, 1993.
References
Peer-Reviewed Research (Vancouver)
- Cloitre M, Stolbach BC, Herman JL, van der Kolk B, Pynoos R, Wang J, et al. A developmental approach to complex PTSD: childhood and adult cumulative trauma as predictors of symptom complexity. J Trauma Stress. 2009;22(5):399-408. doi:10.1002/jts.20444. PMID: 19795402.
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LMFT · Relational Trauma Specialist · Author, W.W. Norton 2027
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Annie Wright is a licensed psychotherapist (LMFT #95719) and trauma-informed executive coach with over 15,000 clinical hours. She works with driven women, including Silicon Valley leaders, physicians, and entrepreneurs, in repairing the psychological foundations beneath their impressive lives. Annie is the founder and former CEO of Evergreen Counseling, a multimillion-dollar trauma-informed therapy center she built, scaled, and successfully exited. A regular contributor to Psychology Today, her expert commentary has appeared in Forbes, Business Insider, NBC News, and The Information. She’s currently writing her first book with W.W. Norton.
